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Volume 4 Issue 11
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November- December 1997
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E L E C T R I C D R E A M S
Volume 4 Issue #11
25 November 1997
ISSN# 1089 4284
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C O N T E N T S
++ Editor's Notes
++ Dream Airing Column - Victoria Quinton
++ DREAM TREK By Linda Lane Magallon
The Halloween Costume Ball
Report on a group dreaming project
++ Dream Analysis as a Science
Article by Robert Lewis
Discussion by Robert Lewis and Richard Wilkerson
++ Interview: Debriefing for an Accent into Lucid Freedom
An Interview with Dolphina
++ John Fitzsimons interview October 97
Victoria Quinton
++ Sex, Symbols and Dreams
A Review of the Work of Janice Hinshaw Baylis, Ph.D
Linley Joy
++ Madame Aionia's Astrological Dreaming Series:
Dreaming Through the Houses: 10th House
G L O B A L D R E A M I N G N E W S
Director Peggy Coats
This Month's Features:
NEWS
- Dreamer 1.0 for Windows 95
- Autographed Copy of Our Dreaming Mind Available
- Dream Studies Certificate Program Offered in January
- An Invitation from Robert Bosnack to Participate in
CyberDreamWork
- Dream Consultation with Robert Van de Castle Offered by Mail
- Mayan Dreaming Retreat and Shamanic Training In the Yucatan
with Ariadne Green
- Dream Cruise to the Caribbean
- Interactive Dreaming
-ASD News Updates
RESEARCH & REQUESTS
- Enigmatic "Winged Horse" Study
- Looking for Hearing Impaired Dream Research
WEBSITE & ONLINE UPDATES
- Dream Translations
- CyberDreamWork
- Psychology and Film
LATE BREAKING NEWS
- Jeremy Taylor In Cyberspace
DREAM CALENDAR for November-December 1997
D R E A M S SECTION - BY BOB K.
SEE INDEX Below (For ED V4N11)
++ EDITORIAL: CHANGING SEASONS by BK
DISCLAIMER
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DECEMBER 11, WED deadline for submission
FOR Next Electric Dreams vol 4(12)
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Editors' Notes
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Though I'm not a big fan of Television, I did notice with some
despair the rise and fall of the NBC series Sleepwalkers which
lasted all of two shows before being pulled due to low ratings. I
had hoped that the fallout from the series would spark a general
interest in dreams in America and the public light would shine
for a season on all the dream projects and knowledge that are
currently being explored. No such luck, maybe next season.
In the meantime, I'm happy to bring you some of the most
pioneering of dream concerned folks who use the Net as a means of
exploring dreams and dreaming.
Linda Magallon is back with a summary of our Halloween
adventures and dreams during the experimental Swarm III, an
online and mutual dreaming experiment.
Robert Lewis and I discuss his ideas about dreaming as science,
what this might look like, what's needed and what considerations
might be worked through. Is there an essential reason for
dreaming, or will all posited reasons be diluted by the
multiplicity of dream layers and interpretive perspective?
Two interviews this month explore the personal and professional
use of dreams. Be sure to read both the Dolphina and John
Fitzsimons interviews by ED staff.
Whenever sex comes up in a dream we are often quick to point out
that Freud's ideas aren't the only one's on the block. But what
are the other ideas? Some very useful work of Janice Hinshaw
Baylis is reviewed by Linley Joy when she investigates Sex,
Symbols and Dreams.
Madame Aionia continues her investigation of dreams and
astrology in Dreaming Through the Houses. This month, the
Eleventh House.
Peggy Coats brings to you this month the scoop on dreams and
dreaming in the Global Dreaming News. Learn how to have private
dream interpretive sessions with world famous Robert Van de
Castle, or get a signed copy of his popular book. Take a Dream
Cruise with famous dream personages. Consider getting certified
in dreamwork. Join a research study on dreams. Locate a CD dream
journal program. Find out what's going on with the Association
for the Study of Dreams. All these and much, much more in the GD
news.
Be sure to scan through the Dream Airing area for notes from
others online about dreaming questions and comments.
I'll let Bob tell you about the Dreams Section himself.
Say, are you interested in joining a dream sharing group or
would you like to make comments on dreams we get? If so, drop me
a line....
- Richard Wilkerson
rcwilk@aol.com
From Bob Krumahnsl about this month's Dream Section:
Highlights from this issue: Take a WALK WITH CHAN for a trip to a
magical site which actually exists, and listen to advice for the
living from the other side. Have you ever had a Falling dream?
Relive the experience with THE ARCADE. Share a journey through
space and time in MOUND O DAD in the HOTEL section. Check out
DIRECTIONS for suggestions on dealing with some of this issues
dreams from a directional perspective. GOD comes to our pages in
REVELATION under RELIGIOUS RELATED. Again, several Car related
dreams were submitted. They are included in the VEHICLE section -
from moving cars to cars in parking lots. How is the car in your
life doing? Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate this event.
Enjoy your visit to the pages of Electric Dreams.
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Dream Airing Column - Victoria Quinton
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QUESTION AIRING FORUM
Hello everyone
I have been kept busy in the recent past with activities relating
to Emily going to kindergarten next year.
Happy Thanksgiving to you in the US.
The temperature is rising here; the heat will be on for Christmas
before I know it.
Happy family times to everyone.
I am still looking to expand my children and dreams page:
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~mermaid/childdrm.htm
and would welcome any ideas.
May you all have fulfilling dreams.
Victoria Quinton
mermaid@alphalink.com.au
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~mermaid
Looking for the Writhing Woman Dreamer
Robert Lewis <robertl@core-net.com>
I request the e-mail address of the person who dreamt Writhing
Women, dream # 97030.
====================================
I am a 52 year old male. For sometime now I have experienced upon
wakening or while shaving in the morning an experience that is new to
me. I will be thinking about a dream I had during the night. The
dream will be very clear and while I am concentrating on the dream, I
will suddenly begin to remember dreams that I have had over the past
year. They are remembered in detail. It is like a file folder has
opened in my mind!. Sometimes the dreams go by so fast that I have to
"shake my head and say wow!"
I have remembered dreams from the previous night but never have
experienced the remembrance of dreams from times past until recently.
Is this a common occurrence with people? Any information would be
appreciated.
Thank You Frank
avey@bendnet.com
==============================
From Epic Dewfall
I made a rather detailed faq explaining my lucid dream art work. I thought maybe you might like
to read it sometime.
http://www.storm.ca/~lucid/faq.html
RCW: Epic - I thought others might like this too, as your site is
such a fabulous example of dream inspired art.
===========================
Sleepwalkers.
The NBC show Sleepwalkers had only two episodes, but we had
some questions on the show which I sent in to Keith at the
Lucidity Institute:
>Hi Keith,
> Well, two of the Sleepwalkers shows have aired and I wanted
>to check with > you on fallout, feedback and responses. Did you
>get a chance to see either of them?
Hi Richard,
I have not received a single call from people that have watched
the show to my surprise.
> TV shows all leave me a little bored, but I do feel that if
the show is successful, there will be a surge in dream
consciousness.
K:
That's what I am hoping. The show has a lot of scary things
happening that could discourage lucid dreaming, but I expect that
the the surge will take place instead (I hope).
R:> - Some of the questions that have come in that you might
want to respond to for the Electric Dreams November/December
issue....
>
> - Do dreams really cause blindness?
I can't see how dreams could possibly cause blindness. I suspect
that some people that had become blind at some point in their
life may have seen a false cause and effect relationship if they
had become blind overnight.
> - Do dreams really cause paralysis? (this sneaky line in the
show (1)
> *could* be interpreted as rem paralysis, but was said in the
context to > imply that dreams have left people blind and in
waking life paralyzed)
Again, I think that this may have come from the cause and effect
relationship or Hollywood hype. Certainly we become temporarily
paralyzed
in REM sleep, and some people even experience "sleep paralysis"
or the inability to move for a short while after awakening, but I
do not see that dreams would ever cause paralysis.
> and thus
>
> -Are dreams dangerous?
Dreams are not dangerous. I could see that a person with a weak
heart, upon awakening from a scary dream (heart rate does not
increase too much beyond normal in the dream) a person could
experience problems. You see, Lucid dreaming could someday save
your life! ;)
>
> - Do people really meet in dreams?
I don't know. Linda Magallon (caseyflyer@aol.com) wrote a book
on the subject of mutual dreaming, so she would be able to answer
that question better than I.
>
> - Is there a connection between Steven in the first show and
Stephen Laberge?
>
There might be. The producers of the first show did come to the
Lucidity Institute and spoke with Dr. LaBerge.
> - How far away are we from having the equipment to travel in
dreams like in Sleepwalkers?
I wish I knew. This would probably depend on private funding
since all research dollars go to sleep medicine and not in things
like that or lucid dreaming.
>
> - What *is* the connection between the Morphius Institute and
the Lucidity Institute? (not only questions about the model for
the Morphius institute, but what parallels in the direction and
goals of the research are there? )
Morpheus is the Greek god of dreams, so it seems like an
appropriate name, and the producers did visit us which could have
sparked their imagination. Our goals in the research are
certainly the same in the aspect that we want people to use
lucidity to help them in life which can be done with a better
understanding of the lucid state or with the help of
technology. So far, the show has touched on using dreams to help
with nightmares and waking problems, but lucid dreaming can help
in many other
ways such as creativity, problem solving, and self-improvement to
name a few.
> - What's the best way to learn about lucid dreaming?
visit our site http://www.lucidity.com and read books about it.
Also talk with friends and other people that are interested in
lucid dreaming.
Keith Garcia
-----------------------------------------------------------------
------
The Lucidity Institute, Inc. * tel: 650.321.9969 * fax:
650.321.9967
keith@lucidity.com * ftp://ftp.lucidity.com *
http://www.lucidity.com
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DREAM TREK
By Linda Lane Magallon
The Halloween Costume Ball
Report on a group dreaming project
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For the entire week of Halloween, dreamers were invited to dream
their way to a Halloween Costume Ball aboard "the
Magallón-Galleon dreamland cruise." Before sleeping, they were
instructed to picture themselves in the costume of their choice,
to climb into their own sleep of dreams and (like Wynken, Blynken
and Nod) to set sail as they drifted into sleep. They were also
advised to pay especial attention to the characters in their
dreams...the fellow revelers they might meet during the night. 21
people sent in dreams, from 3 continents.
Costumes and Literal Identification:
True to the *Fly-By-Night Club* sponsorship, there were plenty
of winged creatures: birds, butterflies, even flying fish. One
woman planned to come as a cat with retractable wings; another
dreamt she rode a flying lion. Both reported similar emotions.
For Victoria, the lion seemed to be getting angry; Ruth, the
cat-woman, dreamt of a confrontation.
A space theme was prevalent: there were stars and a crescent
moon. Also, an astronaut, Star Trekker, Super Hero and Rocket
Man.
An American dreamt of a woman in a Dutch cap. One of the
participants was, indeed, a woman from the Netherlands.
2 people dreamt of a man named John (one of our participants
was actually named John); 3 dreamt of a man named Paul (no one
participated with that waking name).
Although some people saw long gowns, the favorite costume was
bloomer pants! Here are some variations on that theme: Chinese
bloomers, Siamese, Afgani, Kozak dancer, belly dancer and baggy
19th century pants. (Two people had 19th century costumes.)
Symbols:
We always see other people through the filter of our own
perception. The dreams pictured this as: mirrors, a card deck
with moving faces and a woman's face smack in the middle of a
kite.
Apropos the sweet nature of American Halloween, one man dreamt
of John Candy; another man pictured carrying candy inside his
pocket and a 3rd man dreamt of getting candy with money from
inside a candy machine.
A couple of people commented about strange foreign-symbolic
writing. Roger did send a dream in French.
Best collaborative pun award goes to Ruth and Tony. Ruth dreamt
of a "deck" (or pack) of Tarot cards. Tony dreamt of his laying
his jetpack on a wooden "deck."
Locations:
Several people commented on the curved walls of their indoor
surroundings. There were also large outdoor spaces for
party-gatherings, including 2 camps. Although 3 ships were
mentioned, most dreaming minds chose other vehicles for their
night journey, like cars, trains, and, of course, beds!
Actions:
In my dream, I closely scrutinized a skirt costume; Melinda did
the same thing (she was lucid and dreaming of me at the time).
Ruth dreamt that she asked Melinda if she had dreamt up a lucid
dream for the project and Melinda had replied that she did. True!
The prize for closest harmony between dreams goes to Shirley and
Country Girl:
Shirley: I was with a group of people and we were all strapped
into this huge concentric circle. Like the inside of some
amusement park ride. Suddenly we began to spin, we spun around
and around so fast, we began to tilt up on our side. Then I saw
this strange being standing to my left and he was spraying this
mist stuff in the air. I asked him what he was doing and he said
he was giving me "pure oxygen" to breathe because my lips were
turning white and I was about ready to pass out. The phrase
"centrifugal force" popped into my mind as I struggled awake.
Whoa!
Country Girl: ...We were surrounded by a large crowd and there
were a lot of beds around. Continuing to hum, I kissed him
harder, backing him up against a pair of
bunk beds. Then we were rotated at right angles from before and
there
was a double bed behind him instead of the bunk beds, as I began
putting
the rhythm off beat in syncopation...Now we were standing in the
midst of all the beds, spinning. (Like in the movie Dirty
Dancing - which, unbeknownst to me, was to air on TV the next
day...) I couldn't say if I was one person, or two. My head was
back and my hair flying out straight behind me as we spun around.
The crowd continued to urge us on and the energy
continued to mount. It was a hard, driving rock beat. Now I was
now spinning, not upright, but with my body out parallel to the
floor and my left arm pointing downwards, my fingertips as the
pivot.
I remember thinking that you aren't supposed to be able to do
this, to spin this way. But I didn't care. Nothing existed but
us and the music.
The queen of this year's Halloween Ball is Mary. She had
resonance with the greatest number of other people's dreams:
A single man who is an "astronaut" = Christopher's Star Trek
costume and Tony's Rocket Man dream (However, both of those men
are married!)
A "briefcase" = Melinda's woman with briefcase
"Video-taping" = Ruth's video. Mary also talks about a "man
with dark brown hair, 5'7'" who is carrying some "locker doors."
Ruth describes her Paul as "average height, dark-brown hair, very
slightly receding hairline, nondescript." He's playing with a
deck of cards.
The platforms floating in air = Country Girls' beds & Shirley's
circle.
The army soldier with battle fatigues = Wow, what a hit with
Cynnie's dream!
Her Chinese bloomers resonate with several people, but the red
vest and white shirt = Gerard's costume (Melinda also dreamt of
"red and white," as did Lucky)
Is the lumber = Christopher's "siding"? Is the alien craft =
Tony's "Rocket Man"?
The cut canvas = my dream of a torn chiffon skirt.
The woman who says she's going to Hawaii = several of the
project participants are planning to go to the ASD '98 conference
in Hawaii.
A man with light brown, chin length, poofy hair = In waking
life, I have dark brown tint (over grey) hair, currently cut chin
length. However, in my dream, I had an Afro. In the dream state,
I am often perceived by other people (especially other mutual
dreamers) as a dark haired man.
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Dream Analysis as a Science
Article by Robert Lewis
Discussion by Robert Lewis and Richard Wilkerson
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PREAMBLE
There will come a day, perhaps sooner than later, when every
dream will be known by its category, and every significant dream,
(those that yield "practical" knowledge), will be perfectly
understood. In this future, dream analysis, as a scientifically
verifiable body of knowledge, will have acquired a status
comparable to science, and will be regarded as one of the
principle sources of self knowledge.
What is remarkable and yet remarkably overlooked is that
because we all dream, we are already in possession of this
knowledge. But the laws which would make this knowledge
explicitly known to us have not yet been uncovered, much like the
motion of the planets was observed before Newton, but without his
laws, the mere fact of their motion held no "practical"
significance. The pseudo-science of dream analysis is stuck in a
pre-Newtonian universe. If dream analysis is to advance
towards a "practical" goal, if it is to move beyond its merely
speculative sphere of activity, it must take a bold step
backwards and finally begin to establish and secure its axioms
and principles (and pre-suppositions): the indispensable
building blocks of knowledge.
The following paper, provisional in its scope, is an
invitation to the dream establishment to explore how this
enormous but critical (phenomenological, "pre-hermeneutical")
task might be approached. The fundamental question that must
be asked is: what can we say for certain, if anything, about
dreams?
TO SUBJECT DREAM ANALYSIS TO SCIENTIFIC SCRUTINY
IF DREAM analysis has been given short shrift as a legitimate
psycho-analytical tool, it is because it hasn`t been able to
establish a scientific foundation for itself. For the most part,
it continues to seek a phantom unifying principle, where
commonalities are forged into theories that knit together a broad
category of dreams. However, while models and theories abound,
their predictive value collapses in the face of individual
experience.
So if we begin with the presupposition that every dream,
like every snowflake, has its unique structure and meaning, we
can turn our attention away from a grand unifying principle, and
instead, begin to ask more the primordial questions of dreams.
Which means before we begin to speak about dreams, it is
necessary to demonstrate the biological basis (necessity) of
dreaming; and to show that dreams are as identifiably and
singularly purposeful to man's psychological life as, for
example, essential proteins are to existence.
As far as we claim to know anything about dreams, the
still unanswered question remain: why do we dream, to what
ultimate purpose? What is the meaning of dreams, where the
meaning or essence is the same for each and every dream, much
like a house can mean a thousand things to a thousand dwellers,
but prior to individual meaning, it is first and foremost always
a shelter. The status and future of dream analysis as
investigative tool hang on these questions.
We are the only species that can willfully delude
ourselves. I can convince myself that my neighbor likes me when
he really doesn`t; that my understanding of Hegel is adequate
enough to effectively teach it when it isn`t; that I approve of
my daughter`s choice for a husband when I don`t etc. In each
case there are incontrovertible facts which should lead me to
conclude that (1) my neighbor doesn`t like me (2) that I don`t
approve of my daughter`s marriage (3) that my understanding of
Hegel is inadequate etc. But in each case the facts have been
undermined or corrupted by a self-serving interpretation whose
first effect is to `apparently` render less stressful what would
otherwise be a stress inducing situation. It`s much
easier to convince myself that my neighbor likes me than have to
deal with the possibility that he doesn`t, why doesn`t he, did I
inadvertently insult him, embarrass his wife. what will I say if
he confronts me, etc. It`s again easier to convince myself that
I have an adequate understanding of Hegel, rather than have to
again struggle with his recalcitrant material. If I`m honest
with myself concerning my daughter`s marriage to a man I
disapprove, I risk losing her affection, her respect and the
father-daughter contact which is very important to me. So there
are all sorts of good and practical and immediate reasons for
deluding myself.
If part of being a successful organism means being able
to deal with stress, it`s natural to exercise that uniquely human
option OF consciously CHOOSING to self-delude, if the result is
to postpone or eliminate a potentially stressful situation. But
because we also know that it is always in an organism`s best
interest to perceive reality, so as to be able to respond
(survive) to it as it is (and not what we wish it to be), we
shouldn`t be surprised that over the course of animal and human
evolution the selection process has favored those species who
have been best able to register and process reality. So on the
one hand, we are the species that has been programmed to register
and respond to reality, while at the same time we are the species
that can choose to delude itself. Which begs the question: how
are these competing motivations reconciled?
Before the emergence of intelligence (or
self-consciousness), the sensible world made its home in what is
now referred to as the subconscious (or unconscious). The
organism, in a manner consistent with its DNA, would register and
process information coming from outside itself, and respond in a
pre-determined fashion. It is only in man`s recent history that
that mind could interpret, manipulate or distort the information
initially received through the senses. So if the accurate
reception of reality has always been the first perogative of the
subconscious, it makes sense that dreaming, which we will
designate as the involuntary, biological response to the
conscious mind`s capacity for self-delusion, should occur there.
Dreaming need not occur in the conscious because as part of its
basic constitution, it already has in place a correcting
mechanism -- reason -- which when exercised, obviates the need
to dream. It`s only when reason fails to perform, the species
response in each and every case is to dream. For example, if I
come to conscious terms with my inadequate understanding of Hegel
I will not have to dream it; but if I reject or distort that
truth, I must dream.
With the advent of consciousness, or self-consciousness,
the possibility arises that there can be an inadequate
correspondence between what our senses receive and the
interpretation of what is received. Natural selection has seen
to it that this perception gap is addressed when the organism is
asleep; which is the necessary condition for the corrective
mechanism to be activated and for dreaming to occur. And while
the lower brain (the subconscious) seems to have the last word;
that word, for the most part, remains inarticulate, and rarely
reaches the consciousness of the person who had the dream. From
this, we must conclude that we apparently need not remember our
dreams, much less be able to interpret them. And yet it seems
that it is essential to dream when we have consciously distorted
or misinterpreted what our senses have received.
In other words, if the conscious mind can be happy in
self-delusion, the subconscious can never be; it can never
accept the distortions from above, and yet it cannot pre-empt the
distorting process: it can only respond to it (through the
mechanism of dreaming). Which is to say, natural selection has
favored the kind of intelligent life we are, in whom this
correcting mechanism (dreaming) is a distinguishing
characteristic, but which does not distinguish itself in respect
to final effects. Whether we would be a better or more improved
species if we were more conscious of our dreams is another
question. Our starting point must be that in the absence of
deliberate (professional) intervention, dreams play only a small
role in the decisions which determine the outcome of individual
existence.
Therefor, excepting dreams which anticipate urgent bodily
functions (diarrhea etc.), I propose that all (significant)
dreams, without exception, oblige the dreamer to subconsciously
come to terms with truths or facts the conscious mind has
distorted or misinterpreted. But in the dream, the dreamer does
not come to actual terms with a fact or truth. My dream of Hegel
may have nothing to do with Hegel. But in the dream, which may
take place in a very unrecognizable, or unworldly setting, I will
acknowledge that I have an inadequate understanding of something
which is analogous to my actual situation. In other words, for
the health and well-being of the organism which I am, the dream
will create those optimal conditions which will allow me to come
to subconscious terms with a vital truth that corresponds to the
truth I am avoiding about Hegel in my waking state.
Why must dreams always be symbolic or disguised?
If I am unwilling to come to terms with a particular truth during
my waking, I will
certainly not come to terms with it during sleep if the setting
of the dream is exactly the same as in reality. Therefor, the
dream must use symbols and/or unfamiliar settings/dynamics, to
cajole the dreamer into entering a situation which tricks him
into acknowledging a truth he has consciously avoided or
distorted during his waking.
What is the utility of dreams if we apparently forget
most of them, and those we remember we are unable to interpret?
How can I act upon a dream if I don`t remember it?
If, for example, on an esteem scale, my boss` esteem for
me is 5 out of 10 while I believe it to be 7 out of 10, it`s
hardly necessary that I remember the dream that obliges me to
acknowledge the disparity. However, if the situation is life
threatening, or carries potentially significant consequences, the
content and frequency of the dream will adjust accordingly. For
example, if I continue to deny that my understanding of Hegel is
inadequate, and refuse to recognize the very real possibility
that I will be dismissed from the department, the occasional
dream on the subject may become a recurring dream. Thus
increasing the likelihood that I will become conscious of it.
Even at this point I may not understand the dream, but I will
have registered the mood of it (the mood of inadequate
understanding of something), and this might be enough to make me
act. If this fails to register, the recurring dream may become a
nightmare, from which I will awake, profoundly disturbed, with
the dream fresh in my conscious mind. At that point, I will
probably, at a minimum, be motivated to question the dream. If
the dream contains even a passing reference to Hegel, this might
be enough to finally encourage me to acknowledge the consequences
of not having an adequate understanding of Hegel.
The nightmare is perhaps the most noteworthy of dreams
because its design (purpose) is such that, as a response, it
deliberately affects the conscious, awoken mind; it`s the
tight-rope the dreamer walks between the subconscious and
conscious. Its becomes an appropriate (and arguably necessary)
response when the organism determines that its (upper mind)
capacity for self-delusion is life-threatening, and/or carries
significant negative consequences. Therefor, children, in whom
fantasy and unreality have been nurtured since birth, should
experience more nightmares than adults -- as a measure of their
unhealthy reluctance to relinquish their fantasy life. If this
can be scientifically verified, it follows that children raised
in primitive cultures (or raised more realistically) should be
less prone to nightmares than Disneyland`s children? Or an adult
who is very realistic about himself should dream less (perhaps
require less sleep) than someone who is unrealistic about
himself? {Buddhism maintains that the enlightened Buddha doesn`t
dream? Because he has rid himself of all his delusions?} The
challenge is to submit what is now
mere theory (with perhaps some predictive value) to the rigors of
science.
Dreams represent an extremely rich, but untapped natural
resource, much like the sun`s energy. In light of increasing
demographic pressures and
dwindling natural resources, inter-human relations are becoming
more and more strained as we look to the next century. Dreams,
as a source of knowledge, might be used to relieve some of these
pressure points; but this is to put the cart before the horse.
If dream analysis is to have any epistemological credibility, its
first priority must be to establish a sound scientific foundation
for itself. (Not unlike what Kant tried to do for knowledge).
THE END
Robert Lewis
robertl@core-net.com
======================================
Discussion by Robert Lewis and Richard Wilkerson
Normal text = Richard Wilkerson
Normal text (RCW2) = Richard Wilkerson - second comments
Normal text with >> or << = Quotes of Lewis' Text
CAPITAL TEXT = Robert Lewis's Replies
(Richard): Rob, its quite true that there is still a gap in
the scientific study of meaning. Science has little to say about
meaning, and rather relies on probabilities of appearance. One
can't start with empirical investigation and end up with
statements about meaning without leaping some huge gaps.
(Rob) I AGREE. BUT IN RESPECT TO DREAM ANALYSIS, WE CAN GET A
LOT CLOSER TO THE MEANING OF A DREAM IF WE UNDERSTAND, AS FACT,
THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF DREAMING, WHERE EVERY PRACTICAL DREAM IS
DREAMT FOR THE SAME REASON. THIS IS WHAT I'M AIMING AT. AS FOR
THE MEANING OF INDIVIDUAL DREAMS, THAT, I SUSPECT, WILL FALL INTO
PLACE, ONCE THE MAJOR PRINCIPLES HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED. AM I TOO
OPTIMISTIC FOR MY OWN GOOD?
(RCW2): Well, I'll say more about this later, but I do think that
by pursuing a specific view of dream-meaning that powerful tools
can result. As to whether *other* theories of dream meaning would
have to step aside forever, well, that may be expecting too much
from a theory.
(Text Quote) >IF DREAM analysis has been given short shrift as a
legitimate psycho-analytical >tool, it is because it hasn`t been
able to establish a scientific foundation for itself.
(Richard): I quite agree that dream analysis has not gone very
far in establishing a scientific foundation for itself. I don't
agree that the short shrift as a legitimate psycho-analytic tool
is due to this. Freud complained near the end of his life that
no one in psychoanalysis had advanced his original dream
theories. This complaint, to my understanding, had to do with the
development of transference, which the (Freudian) psychoanalysts
as a group preferred to focus on and use as the major tool.
Transference has not gone any farther than dreams in getting
itself established scientifically. As a matter of fact,
psychoanalysis has not gone very far in getting itself
scientifically established. Most of the original pseudo-physics
Freud used as a model (or I should say, fin-de-sicle science)
have been dropped.
Now, perhaps you are using "psycho-analytic" in a more
general way?
DEFINITELY IN A GENERAL WAY.
Here, I agree with you again, though again, the paths of science
and hermeneutics have always had gaps.
HERMENEUTICS DEALS WITH EVERYTHING BUT SCIENTIFIC FACT.
(RCW2): This used to be so, but now that hermeneutics has given
birth to a variety of interpretive approaches, even science comes
under its scrutiny.
(Richard 1) Jung actually began his career very empirically,
using gsr polygraphs to investigate complexes. But the transition
of complex into dream was never grounded scientifically.
> For the most part, it continues to seek a phantom unifying
principle, where commonalities are >forged into theories that
knit together a broad category of dreams. However, while models
and >theories abound, their predictive value collapses in the
face of individual experience.
Yes, and if you need an early reference on the historical
seeking of unity, I believe it was Aristotle who said to be a
good dream interpreter, one had to be good with likenesses. James
Hillman often quotes him. Dreamwork often seems to follow
theosophy and magic in the over-use of correspondence and
likeness as a guiding trope. I think this is due to our loss of
dream telling on a daily basis and the need to find the dream
related to something we know. In my opinion its gone way too far
and we would profit from exploring the differences rather than
all the similarities.
EXACTLY. THE SAME DREAM CAN MEAN TWO DIFFERENT THINGS TO TWO
DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN UNLIKE SITUATIONS. THE SAME DREAM DREAMT IN
THE MORNING MIGHT MEAN SOMETHING ELSE LATER IN THE DAY. YES.
FORGET ABOUT PATTERN RECOGNITION (I.E. SHORT CUTS).
> So if we begin with the presupposition that every dream,
like every snowflake, has its unique structure and meaning, we
can turn our attention away from a grand unifying principle, and
instead, begin to ask more the primordial questions of dreams.
Great. This movement is long overdue. Careful with metaphors
of "primordial" if you are moving away from grand narratives.
> Which means before we begin to speak about dreams, it is
>necessary to >demonstrate the biological basis (necessity) of
>dreaming; and to show >that dreams are as identifiably and
>singularly purposeful to man's psychological life as, for
example, essential proteins are to existence.
I have to agree with bob here.(Bob Krumhansl's comment about
the multiple layers of meaning in a dream. ) Very few things
biologically serve only one function, including proteins. The
current science on dreaming (function vs meaning now) is that
during fetal development dreaming serves in the neuro-
development and hardwiring of the brain, where as later, in this
capacity, it functions to softwire. Also, as the mammalian brain
needs to stay warmer than the reptilian brain, something needs to
keep it occasionally active during the sleep periods without
actually waking the mammal up.
I'M CERTAINLY NOT IN A POSITION TO ARGUE THIS. I'LL JUST SAY
THAT, ALL THE ABOVE BEING TRUE, THERE IS NONETHELESS, A PRACTICAL
(NON BIOLOGICAL) FUNCTION TO DREAMS, THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHICH
CAN RESULT IN A POSITIVE EFFECT ON OUR LIVES AS WE LIVE THEM DAY
TO DAY. WHAT YOU MENTION ABOVE WILL HAPPEN REGARDLESS, AND THERE
IS NO NEED TO BE CONSCIOUS OF IT. AS FOR COMPENSATORY DREAMS,
THAT'S ANOTHER MUCH MORE SERIOUS MATTER. MORE ON THIS LATER.
FOR ALL I KNOW, THERE IS A DREAM TRIGGER THAT TRIGGERS A DREAM,
WHETHER WE NEED TO DREAM OR NOT, MUCH LIKE OUR STOMACH PRODUCES
DIGESTIVE ENZYMES WHETHER WE HAVE EATEN OR NOT. THE KEY IS TO
DISTINGUISH BETWEEN SIGNIFICANT DREAMS PURPOSEFULL) AND
INSIGNIFICANT - THOSE DREAMT REFLEXIVELY (AUTONOMOUSLY).
Another function of dreams. There are many others, biologically
speaking. See
++Moffitt, A., Kramer, M., Hoffmann, R. (Eds.). (1993). The
Function of Dreaming. NY: State University of New York Press.
++Hunt, Harry T.(1989). The Multiplicity of Dreams: Memory,
Imagination and Consciousness. New Haven: Yale University Press.
++Ellman, Steven J. & Antrobus, John S. (Eds). (1991). The Mind
in Sleep: Psychology and Psychophysiology. 2nd editon. New York:
John Wiley and Sons, Inc.
I still feel if you open this up to multiple functions, and are
clear about the difference between the biological and
psychological functions, the thrust of what you are saying will
hold, and actually be strengthened by the multiple uses of
dreaming.
>> As far as we claim to know anything about dreams, the
>still unanswered question remain: why do we dream, to what
>ultimate purpose? What is the meaning of dreams, where the
>meaning or essence is the same for each and every dream, much
>like a house can mean a thousand things to a thousand dwellers,
>but prior to individual meaning, it is first and foremost
>always a shelter. The status and future of dream analysis as
>investigative tool hang on these questions.
Again, I would drop the grand narratives, (ultimate purpose,
essence, foremost meaning) or separate these out as the
spiritual quest from your empirical and psychological quest. A
shelter for some is a prison for others. the theory of biological
adaptation is not the only view in life.
EXACTLY. AGAIN, RE. PRISON ANALOGY, IDENTICAL DREAMS CAN HAVE
UNIDENTICAL MEANINGS.
I hear in your text a kind of phenomenological quest as well
which could be developed. Husserl, who said, "to the things
themselves" was interested in an investigation of the world and
the perceiver of the world in a way that would get to that part
of things one might call essential. What, he asks, can be removed
from that book over there in such a way that it is still
essentially what it is? I hear in your questions a similar
theme.
>>>>> We are the only species that can willfully delude
ourselves. I can convince myself..=//= . (much text cut - see
full text above) =//= >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rob, Carl Jung would agree with you in your argument and
extends in a little. He felt that nature abhors a vacuum and when
the ego goes too far from its biological destiny, an unconscious
compensation occurs, which can be seen in the dream. Your theory
is slightly different in that you hold that the unconscious has
the truth and the dream attempts to bridge or mend this gap.
AT THIS STAGE, RICHARD, THIS IS THE KEY TO WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY
AND PROVE. EVEN IF I'M WRONG, I BELIEVE THERE IS A SINGLE
PURPOSE (THAT REMAINS TO BE UNCOVERED) TO SIGNIFICANT DREAMING,
AS UNVARIABLE AS A LAW OF PHYSICS. EVEN IF IT DOESN'T EXIST OR
IS NEVER FOUND, THIS SHOULD BE THE QUEST.
There are some assumptions here you will have to live with
that I would be uncomfortable with. One is that the world is *in*
the unconscious and that the unconscious contains the truth. I
would rather say that truths often come through the unconscious.
It would be a highly spiritualized position to say that the
unconscious is the keeper of capital R Reality.
THE SENSES KNOW THE TRUTH. IT'S OUR INTERPRETATION OF WHAT THE
SENSES HAVE REGISTERED IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES.
IF OUR INTERPRETATION IS CORRECT, THE TRUTH RESIDES IN THE
CONSCIOUS. IF INCORRECT, WE MUST DREAM THE TRUTH - UNCONSCIOUSLY
- AND DEPENDING ON A HOST OF FACTORS THIS TRUTH MAY NEVER REACH
THE CONSCIOUS.
In Jung's system, the conscious and the unconscious cooperate to
fill in the gap that exists between the concrete truth and the
ideal truth. Besides truth and lies, there is a whole range of
being.
I AGREE RICHARD, AND MUST CAUTION MYSELF RE. THE EXCESSIVE USE
OF POLARITIES - EASY TO WORK WITH BUT NOT TRUE TO MANY LIFE
SITUATIONS.
Some people choose self sacrifice, lying to themselves and others
about the truth not to feel better but for a larger reality. In
this sense, its not a lie, but a deliberate act of
non-adaptation.
IF THIS IS THE CASE, THEN THE PERSON WILL DREAM THE TRUTH, THAT,
FOR EX. HE REALLY ISN'T SACRIFICING FOR A LARGER REALITY, BUT HIS
WIFE HAS JUST LEFT HIM AND HE IS SUBCONSCIOUSLY SUICIDAL - OR
WHATEVER. TO REPEAT: IF IT IS ALWAYS IN OUR INTEREST TO KNOW
REALITY FOR WHAT IT IS, THE DREAM WILL COME TO THE RESCUE. THE
DREAM IS ALWAYS WORKING IN THE INTEREST OF SURVIVAL. NOW OF
COURSE THERE ARE EXAMPLES WHERE KNOWING THE TRUTH -- THAT MY
WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH MY BEST FRIEND - MIGHT CAUSE
CONSIDERABLE PAIN, WHERE NOT KNOWING MIGHT BE BETTER. BUT
EXAMPLES LIKE THIS WOULD BE THE EXCEPTION, AND EVEN WITHIN THAT
GROUP, LONG TERM RESULTS MIGHT SHOW THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
BETTER TO KNOW RIGHT AWAY.
Concrete reality is only one reality. By the way, it has never
been scientifically verified that survival is better than not
surviving.
TRUE, BUT FOR THE SAKE OF . . . WE MUST PRESUPPOSE IT.
This is an assumption that is untested and probably untestable.
I think it would be productive & powerful tool to develop the
notion of dreams as compensation for self-deceit. But to get to
an empirical basis for this, I think you might want to re-work
your notion of the unconscious.
COULD YOU ELABORATE ON THIS.
I guess I get hung up on this idea of the subconscious truth in
general. You are using it in a specific way which is more
understandable. If you say that one's unconscious "knows" the
truth, what you are getting at(I think) is that it knows the
places where we have been deceiving ourselves, and if this is not
going to be adaptive, it will reveal them in a dream.
So there is a mix here of the unconscious knowing both where we
have deceived ourselves and what is adaptive (for the individual,
I assume - or for the group?) In this sense, this begins to look
like what is generally called intuition - a semi-conscious
grasping of the picture as a whole. This could be developed to be
quite useful, dreams as intuitive grasps of reality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>Whether we would be a better or more improved species >if we
were more conscious of our dreams is another question. Our
starting >point must be that in the absence of deliberate
(professional) >intervention, dreams play only a small role in
the decisions which >determine the outcome of individual
existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why is it we can't assume that dreams are not just like other
body parts, they are essential, they function pretty well without
intervention and yet can be improved with the consciously applied
techniques (proper nutrients and diet, exercise, ect) ?
I'M NOT SUGGESTING WE INTERFERE WITH DREAMING PROPER, BUT DREAM
ANALYSIS, LIKE A MUSCLE THAT WORKS WELL, CAN BE MADE TO WORK
BETTER WITH INTERVENTION AND TECHNIQUE. PHILOSOPHICAL
OBSERVATION; I BELIEVE THAT SELF AWARENESS IS SO UNDERDEVELOPED
SO AS TO BE PATHOLOGICAL IN MANY INSTANCES, THAT DREAM ANALYSIS,
IN PARTICULAR, COULD REVOLUTIONIZE THE WAY WE KNOW AND THINK
ABOUT OURSELVES. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Me too.
> Therefor, excepting dreams which anticipate urgent
bodily functions (diarrhea etc.), I >propose that
all(significant) dreams, without exception, oblige the dreamer to
subconsciously >come to terms with truths or facts the conscious
mind has distorted or misinterpreted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Slightly unclear here. If we have to come to terms in the
realm that already knows the truth (didn't you say the
unconscious has this reality factor? ) then is the dreamer really
coming to terms?
OBLIGE, IN THE SENSE THAT WE HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE
TRUTH SOMEWHERE - IN THIS CASE, THE SUBCONSCIOUS IF WE ARE GUILTY
OF CONSCIOUSLY DISTORTING THE TRUTH. AT A MINIMUM, THE DREAMER,
ONCE HAVING DREAMT, COMES TO SUBCONSCIOUS TERMS WITH THE TRUTH.
But I get your drift. Its a little limited for me to say that
*all* significance must be in the separation of truth and
falseness, and that our survival depends on this.
I AGREE. THIS IS OF COURSE TOO BLACK AND WHITE, BUT AT THIS
EARLY POINT, I'M JUST TRYING TO MAKE SOME BASIC POINTS - TO BE
REFINED MUCH LATER, IF I BECOME CONVINCED THIS IS WORTH PURSUING.
This is one of many significant processes that I involve myself
with. Maybe I can accept this as a noble and wonderful path?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>But in the dream, the dreamer does not come to actual terms
with a fact or truth.=//= test cut here see above =//=
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
It might be easier to say the unconscious has many if not all of
our views, be they distorted or not, and this is what the dream
plays with.
I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO GROUND TO ARGUE WITH THIS, BUT I PERSONALLY
BELIEVE THAT DISTORTION IS ANATHEMA TO THE UNCONSCIOUS, THAT FOR
THE MOST PART IT SIMPLY RECORDS OR REGISTERS WHAT THE SENSES HAVE
RECEIVED.
This is more the esoteric tradition's viewpoint, that ego
consciousness is the distorter of truth while the unconscious
hold the clear picture. I like to think we are cooperating with
one another.
IF I TRULY BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE HONORABLE INTENTIONS TOWARD ME,
BUT IN FACT, BECAUSE YOU KNOW OTHERWISE, THAT YOU PLAN TO DO ME
HARM, I WILL NOT HAVE TO DREAM BECAUSE I WILL HAVE DISTORTED
NOTHING. DREAMS CANNOT SAVE US FROM THE CONTINGENCIES OF
LIFE, OR FROM THE EVIL IN MEN'S HEARTS. THEY CAN ONLY SAVE US
FROM OURSELVES. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Why must dreams always be symbolic or disguised?
Right! Both symbol and disguise are ways of looking at the
dream, not necessarily something the dream practices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>If I>am unwilling to come to terms with a particular truth
during my waking, I will certainly >not come to terms with it
during sleep if the setting of the dream is exactly the same as
in reality. >Therefor, the dream must use symbols and/or
unfamiliar settings/dynamics, to cajole the >dreamer into
entering a situation which tricks him into acknowledging a truth
he has consciously >avoided or distorted during his waking.
THIS WOULD BE ONE OF THE LETIMOTIFS OF THE THOUGHT I'M TRYING TO
DEVELOP
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is an interesting take. You could back this up with the
dream content analysis work of Calvin Hall and Bob Domhoff that
shows that we rarely dream of work, though we spend oodles of
time there.
BUT I'LL BET WE DREAM A LOT ABOUT OUR INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS
THAT TAKE PLACE AT WORK, AS A RESULT OF DELIBERATE SELF-DECEPTION
ABOUT OUR TRUE FEELINGS ABOUT THOSE WHO WORK ABOVE US AND BELOW
US.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> What is the utility of dreams if we apparently forget
most of them, and those we remember >we are unable to interpret?
How can I act upon a dream if I don`t remember it? If,
for >example, on an esteem scale, my boss` esteem for me is 5 out
of 10 while I believe it to be 7 out of 10, it`s hardly necessary
that I remember the dream that obliges me to acknowledge the
disparity. However, if the situation is life threatening, or
carries potentially significant consequences, the content and
frequency of the dream will adjust accordingly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is something you could test to find significance of
occurrence.
ESPECIALLY FOR DISTURBING DREAMS.
>For example, if I continue to deny that my understanding of
Hegel is inadequate, and refuse to >recognize the very real
possibility that I will be dismissed from the department, the
occasional dream on the subject may become a recurring dream.
Thus increasing the likelihood that I will become conscious of
it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, I would not oppose truth and falseness, but rather that
the deluded Hegel teacher holds various viewpoints, some of which
the ego responds to and recognizes, others which are not well
assimilated. Whether *any* of these views correspond to reality
is another issue that in the end will be unresolved. The "fact"
of the teacher not knowing Hegel very well is not a fact at all.
You may feel he doesn't know Hegel, the students may feel he
doesn't know Hegel, the administration may feel he doesn't know
Hegel and Hegel may be rolling over in his grave.
THIS IS AN EXCELLENT POINT. THE STUDENTS MAY FEEL HE KNOWS
HEGEL, BUT IF HE DOESN'T, BUT CONVINCES HIMSELF THAT HE DOES, HE
WILL DREAM. HOWEVER, IF HE NEEDS TO KNOW HEGEL ONLY ENOUGH TO BE
ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY TEACH IT, AND HE KNOWS HE KNOWS ENOUGH TO
TEACH IT, THEN HE WON'T DREAM. THIS EXAMPLE ILLUSTRATES HOW
RELATIVE ARE DREAMS. THE SAME KNOWLEDGE OF HEGEL APPLIED TO
DIFFERENT SITUATIONS WILL RESULT IN DIFFERENT DREAMS, OR NO
DREAMS AT ALL. THIS POINT AGAIN DEMONSTRATES (FOR ME AT LEAST)
THAT WE MUST RID OURSEVLES OF THE NOTION THAT PATTERNS CAN BE
FOUND IN DREAMS. EVERY DREAM IS UNIQUE AND IS THE RESULT OF A
VERY VERY PARTICULARIZED PERSONAL SITUATION.
AS AN ASIDE, I'M NOT AT ALL IMPRESSED WITH THE ANALYSES
THAT ACCOMPANY DREAMS THAT ARE POSTED IN THE VARIOUS DREAM
REPOSITORIES ON THE NET. NOT AT ALL.
FOR EXAMPLE, DREAM # 970730 WRITHING WOMEN. IF, AS I CLAIM, WE
DREAM FOR OURSELVES IN ORDER TO PROVIDE(UNDISTORTED) INFORMATION
FOR OURSELVES, THE WOMAN HAVING THIS DREAM PROBABLY, THANKS TO
MEDIA OR WHATEVER, BELIEVES THAT OBTAINING A CERTAIN APPEARANCE
WILL MAKE HER HAPPY, THAT THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE THIS LOOK, OR
WHATEVER, AS PRESENTED ON TV OR WHEREVER, ARE HAPPY. THE DREAM
IS TELLING HER THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY, OR BEAUTIFUL, OR
WHATEVER. IN THE BROADEST TERMS, IT SEEMS THAT THE DREAM IS
CORRECTING A FALSE SET OF VALUES SHE IS ASPIRING TO.
But what is the ~measure~ that he doesn't know Hegel? Its a
conventional or operational reality, not an essential truth.
EXACTLY. THIS IS VERY INSIGHTFUL. AND I BELIEVE THAT DREAM
ANALYSIS WILL RECOGNIZE THESE SUBTLETIES, WHICH INCLUDE OUR
DISTORTIONS. AS LONG AS WE BELIEVE A PARTICULAR STANDARD TO BE
CORRECT, OR MEANINGFUL, OR SIGNIFICANT, OR VALID, THERE WILL BE
NO NEED TO DREAM. IT'S WHEN WE DECEIVE OURSELVES VIS A VIS OUR
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE STANDARD. IF THE STANDARD CHANGES, AND WE
DELIBERATELY CLING TO THE NOW INVALID ONE, THEN WE WILL DREAM.
What if he sticks to his guns, writes a radical book on Hegel
and becomes the interpreter of Hegel for a whole new generation?
What will the administration that fired him say then? They can
only say he didn't know Hegel according to a particular standard,
some kind of consensus reality. What the dreamer would try to
put together (in your theory with modifications) would not be
truth and false but two (or more) viewpoints that are at odds at
the moment. The dreamer in this sense is relived from having the
burden of Truth and False, and rather situated between various
truths or views that he may or may not reconcile to his advantage
(advantage being another assumed meaning structure).
I GUESS I DIAGREE WITH YOU HERE, RICHARD. THE DREAMER IS ONLY
RELIEVED AFTER HE HAS DREAMED. BUT I AGREE THAT THE TRUE FALSE
DICHOTOMY IS LIMITING. I GUESS I'M STUCK ON THE POINT THAT THE
BASIC REASON WE DREAM IS ALWAYS THE SAME -- AND I'M MAKING
EVERYTHING CONFORM TO THAT PREMISE.
Jung suggested that the dream is holding an imagistic
solution to these viewpoints, some conscious, some unconscious.
Image here is used to mean "give me an image of what happened"
rather than a literal picture.
YES
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>Even at >this point I may not understand the dream, but I will
have registered the mood of it (the mood of inadequate
understanding of something), and this might be enough to make me
act. If this fails to register, the recurring dream may become a
nightmare, from which I will awake, profoundly disturbed, with
the dream fresh in my conscious mind. At that point, I will
probably, at a minimum, be motivated to question the dream. If
the dream contains even a passing reference to Hegel, this might
be enough to finally encourage me to acknowledge the consequences
of not having an adequate understanding of Hegel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I like this approach to dream - that we read them for what was
missed in waking life. Hillman goes berserk around this, feeling
that by reading the dream for helping out in day-world life, we
crush the real compensation that is going on, that consciousness
itself is the culprit and we all in the 20th century belong to
the Cult of Consciousness.
I THINK I'D RATHER BELONG TO THE CULT OF CONSCIOUSNESS THAN THE
ALTERNATIVE.
Hey, I thought you liked the honesty of the unconscious? :)
The dream that leads away from consciousness and compensates
consciousness is not necessarily going to be "good" for our day-
world projects - will probably draw us away from them and into
the depths of the soul, a place we had all but lost in late 20th
Century Capitalism.
But I like to read the dream for the unknown, setting aside
for a moment both day and night world projects, that too being a
boundary that dreams will play with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The nightmare is perhaps the most noteworthy of dreams
because its>design (purpose) is such that, as a response, it
deliberately affects the conscious, awoken mind; it`s the
tight-rope the dreamer walks between the subconscious and
conscious. Its becomes an appropriate (and arguably necessary)
response when the organism determines that its (upper mind)
capacity for self-delusion is life-threatening, and/or carries
significant negative consequences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, this is something you could test. Do people who score
higher on self-deception also have more nightmares?
YOU WOULD THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE CONCRETE DATA ON THIS???????
I haven't seen any.
This will be tough to operationally define. Content analysis
says that people score more than half of their dreams as
unpleasant (I though you might like that) but this means that
more than half of the dreams we have are a kind of low level
nightmare.
BY MY RECKONING, MOST OF OUR DREAMS SHOULD BE UNPLEASANT -
ASSUMING THAT COMING TO TERMS WITH CERTAIN TRUTHS WE HAVE
AVOIDED DURING OUR WAKING IS UNPLEASANT.
Your thesis could be furthered by the work of Alan Seigel who
did dream groups after the oakland fire where dozens of families
lost their homes. The worst nightmares were with the guilty
neighbors whose houses *didn't* get burnt.
OUR DREAMS USE THE EVENTS IN OUR LIVES FOR THEIR CONTENT. BY MY
THEORY, PEOPLE WHO FEEL GUILTY BUT AREN'T DECEIVING THEMSELVES
ABOUT IT WON'T DREAM. WHAT MAKES MORE SENSE TO ME IS THAT PEOPLE
WHO DIDN'T DO THE RIGHT THING DURING THIS CRISIS, AND DECEIVED
THEMSELVES ABOUT IT, WOULD HAVE BAD DREAMS ABOUT IT.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Therefor, children, in whom fantasy and unreality have been
nurtured since birth, should >experience more nightmares than
adults -- as a measure of their unhealthy reluctance to
relinquish their fantasy life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The current thinking on primary process - the unhealthy fantasy
mechanisms of projection, denial, conversion reaction,
displacement, condensation, symbolizations, ect, are now being
reviewed. It used to be thought that primary processes remained
undeveloped and infantile. Now it is felt that these processes
develop right along with reality testing ego functions. There is
no "relinquishing" of fantasy, only repression or development.
DO YOU BELIEVE THIS???
(RCW2): I see that creative, semi-conscious processes of
creativity and intuition develop right along side rational
processes and reality testing.
Unreality is another story, one usually told by the cultural
dominate reality. Be careful to distinguish between the unreality
of concrete, sociological and cultural realities.
Most now feel that the problem is not relinquishing fantasy
life, but differentiating between fantasy and reality - both
realms being useful and important in their own domains. If you
look at lucid dreaming, the examples are abundant. Once a person
*realizes* they are dreaming, that they are in a ~fantasy~ or
imaginal realm, then the nightmare is no longer. So what if a
dream killer stabs you, you are only dreaming. The person can
still be quite delusional about what in waking life really will
make a difference in their life, but quite comfortable in the
imaginal realm - no nightmares or bad dreams here.
AS AN ASIDE, RICHARD, I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED WHY ONE WOULD WANT TO
AWAKE IN A DREAM IN ORDER TO CONTROL (and corrupt it) ITS
CONTENT? DOESN'T THIS DEFEAT THE PURPOSE OF THE DREAM, IF THE
DREAM'S PURPOSE IS TO CORRECT OUR CONSCIOUS DISTORTIONS OF
REALITY .
(RCW2): This is a hotly debated topic these days, the benefits vs
consequences of controlling the dream. Some feel that control is
disrupting a process that should be able to flow naturally,
others feel that there is no conflict in adding consciousness to
natural processes. I feel its too late to say we shouldn't
influence our dreams. Once we are aware that dreams are, then we
have conscious and unconscious desires, fears, plans, thoughts
and feelings around them. With this consciousness may come
responsibility. We are a long way off from knowing which
influences cause what reactions on a grand health-hygiene
viewpoint. As to the reasons for becoming lucid, well, its kind
of like sexuality, its hard to tell someone else why it is worth
it, as the activity is generally inherently rewarding and
pleasurable. But not for everyone.
You may also want to check out Ernest Hartmann's work on
nightmares. He has a theory about thin and thick boundary people.
Thin, porous malleable personalities are more susceptible to
nightmares than thick, rigid personalities.
IF SCIENCE EVER CORROBORATES THIS, IT WILL BLOW MY MIND.
(RCW2): Well, remember there that it is *dream recall* we are
talking about. You could still hypothesize that rigid people
*have* more nightmares, they just don't ever recall them.
Though my experience is that rigid folks have so much
trouble with the imaginal realm that it gets deeply repressed.
My feeling is that if you can't swim, you better stay out of
deep waters. I feel dreams are not recalled by animals. Since
they can't distinguish between real-memory-imagination (like
little kids) it would be very un-adaptive to recall dreams.
EXACTLY
That mouse that was over the fence a minute ago when I was
asleep, my actually turn out to be rover. People, however,
developed language, which can be used to represent things that
aren't present. By saying the dream right after waking, the dream
recall is increased. Probably there is a "saying" during the
dreaming as well. Thus the short to long term memory function
that is naturally turned off for dreams is bypassed. Folks who
practice this begin to recall more dreams and will occasionally
forget they are dreaming and run into some horrid - er, ah,
truths and beasts.
However, this is sure not the whole story. Combat Trauma
victims have dreams that repeat over and over, sometimes for
years.
I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT COMBAT TRAUMA VICTIMS WHO SUFFER FROM
RECURRING NIGHTMARES HAVE DIFFICULTY IN JUSTIFYING KILLING OR
WHATEVER - THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT THEY HAD NO
CHOICE ETC., BUT SOMEHOW, THEY KNOW THEY DID HAVE A CHOICE, THEY
DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THAT PARTICULAR WAR ETC. TRUE BELIEVERS, WHO
FOUGHT IN THE SAME TRENCHES, WILL NOT HAVE TO DREAM ABOUT IT.
New therapies that involve dream-reentry and alternative endings
have now made inroads to helping these people, but they never
asked for these horrible re=play dreams. I don't think they are
fooling themselves. I think they have become stuck in the literal
and damages their movement in the imaginal. Perhaps you can work
an angle where they need to come to grips with a new level of
reality which they are denying in their fixation on this past
event. (I.e, going on would entail giving up some forms of
self-delusion about how they can't control everything, or not
everything is good, ect,)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If this can be scientifically verified, it follows that
children raised in primitive cultures (i.e. raised more
realistically) should be less prone to nightmares than
Disneyland`s children?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The current anthropological take on primitive cultures is to
say there *are* no primitive cultures. They are not raised more
realistically or falsely than any other culture, they are simple
a culture that survives or it doesn't and the practices are tied
to their environment. My guess on the kids with the most
nightmares are the ones that 1. Don't differentiate well between
concrete reality and imaginal reality I AGREE and 2. Have general
feelings of helplessness in their family or lack of it. Note
that kids have more animal problem dreams than adults.
PROBABLY BECAUSE ANIMALS, AS IN STORIES OR CARTOONS, PREOCCUPY
CHILDREN MORE THAN ADULTS.
When adults get into stressful new situations, they tend to have
dreams like when they were children. Its as if a marker gets set
up. These markers may help your thesis about stress reduction and
dreams.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Or an adult who is very realistic about himself should dream
>less (perhaps require less sleep) >than someone who is
>unrealistic about himself? {Buddhism maintains that the
>enlightened Buddha doesn`t dream? Because he has rid himself of
all his delusions?} The challenge is to submit what is now mere
theory (with perhaps some predictive value) to the rigors
ofscience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rob - you might want to keep an eye out for the upcoming
book by Gackenbach and LaBerge on dream lucidity and eastern
spirituality. There is a little in their last book on
Gackenbach, Jayne (Ed.), (1987). Sleep and Dreams: A Sourcebook.
New York: Garland Publishing, Inc (original Pub 1986).
The tests with the long term mediators that can stay conscious
during the sleep cycle indicate that instead of dreams "going
away" they simply are something going on while the meditators
remain calm and watchful.
THIS MAKES PERFECT SENSE
This jives better with the Buddhist idea that when enlightenment
occurs, nothing changes, its just that it is more so, the apricot
jam is more apricotly, the blue sky more blue.
> Dreams represent an extremely rich, but untapped natural
>resource, much like the sun`s >energy. In light of increasing
>demographic pressures and dwindling natural resources,
>inter-human >relations are becoming more and more strained as we
>look to the next century. Dreams, as a source of knowledge,
>might be used to relieve some of these pressure points; but
>this is to put the cart before the horse. If dream analysis is
to have any epistemological credibility, its first priority must
be to establish a sound scientific foundation for itself. (Not
unlike what Kant tried to do for knowledge). THE END
AS YOU CAN SEE, RICHARD, I AM, BY CONVENTIONAL STANDARDS, TAKING
A VERY BLINKERED APPROACH TO THIS - BUT I SUPPOSE I WILL CONTINUE
ALONG THIS PATH UNTIL SOMEONE, OR SOMETHING PROVES TO ME THAT I'M
CATEGORICALLY WRONG, OR SIMPLY ON THE WRONG TRACK. IF NOTHING
ELSE, MY STUBBORN OPPOSTION TO ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF MY LIMITED AND
UNTESTED THEORY MIGHT PROVOKE SOME INTERESTING DISCUSSION AND
REFLECTION, AND DREAM ANALYSIS MIGHT BENEFIT IN SOME SMALL WAY.
BUT THE SUBJECT DOES FASCINATE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Some last notes. epistemological credibility? Well, I think
epistemology has itself crashed into the dust of not being able
to justify itself, but it would be interesting to see this
developed for intellectual curiosity sake.
THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT WE ALWAYS KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT WHATEVER IT
IS WE ARE TRYING TO KNOW. THEREFOR, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WE
CAN SAY, THAT APPROXIMATES KNOWLEDGE, TO THE QUESTION: WHY DO WE
DREAM?
Dream research itself seems so hopelessly split, much like
philosophy was before Kant. One side focuses on the mechanisms of
function, the other on the uses of dream in the project of making
life meaningful and giving it sense. I've already mentioned
some research directions on function, the other side, the
investigation of dreams as valuable therapy and self-enhancement
tools is less developed. I recommend the following study as a
jump off point for this second path:
Hill, Clara E., Diemer, R., Hess, S., Hillyer, A, and Seeman, R.
(1993). Are the effects of dream interpretation on session
quality, insight and emotions due to the dream itself, to
projection, or to the interpretation process?
Dreaming, 3(4), 269-280.
These type of studies compare various dream analysis
techniques to other texts and then try to find the place of the
dream in that context. This approach drops any notion of the
dream as a message from the unconscious and rather focuses on the
dream as something can be useful in different ways depending on
the interpretive system we bring *to* the dream.
IF DREAM ANALYSIS IS TO BE SCIENTIFIED (AN ENORMOUSLY
PROBLEMATIC UNDERTAKING) THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE
RIGHT ANSWER TO THE MEANING OF A DREAM., UNLESS THE DREAM IS
ADDRESSING SEVERAL ISSUES SIMULTANEOUSLY. THIS IS WHAT DREAM
ANALYSIS EXPERTS SHOULD BE AIMING FOR?
I think it was Avens who said, we give meaning to the dream,
and then it reveals its significance. In this sense our science
can investigate the relationship between various interpretive
systems and dreams. Note: a lot of people want to leave
hermeneutics & interpretation behind altogether. This includes
the Lucid dream movement, mutual dreaming, pro-active dreaming,
psychic creative dreaming, dream reentry and other various dream
approaches. These radically change the meaning of a dream.
Instead of being something we decode, it is a realm into which we
enter. In this sense , all the baggage of the dayworld is brought
along and questions of what folks are doing there and why they
are doing it are usually answered in the same way we ask this of
life in general.
I hope these reflections are all taken as friendly comments.
ABSOLUTELY. I HOPE MY COMMENTS ON YOUR COMMENTS DON'T SOUND TOO
PRESUMPTUOUS AND/OR CATEGORICAL. I'VE SIMPLY MAPPED OUT A
POSITION, AND FOR THE TIME BEING, I'M GOING TO DEFEND IT UNTIL
I'M CONVINCED IT'S NO LONGER WORTH DEFENDING. WHICH ISN'T TO SAY
THAT THERE ISN'T CONSIDERABLE ROOM FOR EXPANSION AND ELABORATION.
YOU HAVE ALREADY FLOODED MY MIND WITH IDEAS WHICH ARE STILL
GERMINATING, AND FOR THIS, I WILL AGAIN THANK YOU.
I like the ideas you are developing and feel they could be
expanded to provide some powerful tools in dreamwork, as well as
contributing to cognitive psychology and philosophy as well.
Richard rcwilk@aol.com
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Debriefing for an Accent into Lucid Freedom
An Interview and interview with Dolphina
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" Dreams do not make logical sense. They are a mosaic, a puzzling
portrait of pieces that combine with other pieces to make
something altogether unique. "
Dolphina solyluna@cruzio.com
Dolphina's early lucid dreams unfolded in 1993 into the Dreaming
Of Lucid Freedom In America project when she realized what could
be created from the power of dreams. Dophina combines her early
experiences of lucidity with other forms of freedom to provide an
online program for those interested in practicing remote
destination traveling and establishing continuity with
the dreaming body.
Richard Catlett Wilkerson (RCW): Dolphina, you mentioned having
lucid dreams by the age of Seven. What kind of lucid dreams were
they?
A: I say that Dolfina has had lucid dreams since the age of seven
because that is when I recall realizing that I had power to make
choices about the outcome within dreaming. Actually, In my
recall, I have memories going back to being a baby. But I do not
recall being lucid.
(RCW): What kinds of things did you create from the power within
your dreams as a child or did this come later?
A: I have to say that my intentions in dreaming were quite
childish at times and not so childish at other times. I did a lot
of wishing for things, like a new bicycle. So I would create
things I wanted in my day life and experience them in dreaming. I
recall being quite disappointed when I awoke. However, I also
realized that there was a connection between dreaming and things
that occured during the day. I could will my self to become sick
if I did not want to go to school. I mean really sick. I had an
innate knowledge that my wishes had a certain reality.
I used to ask my dream beings questions. I asked everyone
questions. Yet, I knew, that if I ever really wanted to know
anything about reality, all I had to do was ask and an answer
would come back to me.
(RCW): You mention at your web site that due to your early
religious training, you did not feel safe to speak openly about
beings in you dreams.
A: I grew up with a lot of mixed up messages. My parents were
raised Catholic but I was not. My mom tried out several churches
from Baptist to Mormon. My extended familiars were also trying
out various religions. Although babtized Baptist, I had a range
of influence. I could see the contradictions, really, about the
age seven. I kept asking questions about God and religion.
Because of religious confusion, I merely kept asking my inner
guidance. I figured if there was a God, God would talk to me.
(RCW):Did you record or rehearse dreams to remember them?
A: In a sense, yes! I would lock my self in the bathroom and talk
to my self. I had skits of my self talking with other parts of my
self. I would go to a nearby field and watch bugs on the wild
grass and ask questions to my guide and wait for answers. I would
listen to all of the adults around me and memorize their
conversations. I got into trouble around my family a lot for
repeating what every one said. I used to practice listening
through the walls and aiming my attention to adult conversations
in other rooms.
(RCW): What do you feel the most important lessons were these
beings taught you?
A: Trust in a higher power, a force of nature, my inner guidance.
(RCW): How did the early out of body experiences [OOBE] fit into
this? Did you also keep quiet about these experiences?
A: I had out of body experiences at nap time at school. I had a
lot of energy and felt like I wanted to play, all the time. So, I
experienced leaving my body as a rebellion against naps. I did
not know that they had any meaning until I was in my early teens.
At that time, I had been having nightmares about Nuclear War and
that I was the last survivor. I talked to my Great Aunt about my
dreams and when I described the out of body experiences, she
encouraged me to believe that what I experienced was real and of
a spiritual nature. Of course, I did not believe that because I
had not asked the pertinent questions in my life yet. All I knew
was that I had these experiences and I did not know that they
meant anything at all.
(RCW): In college, you dreaming about visiting parallel
dimensions of reality. What was this like, and how did you
recognize that this was a valuable space?
A: My experiences during college were the mind blowers of my
entire life! For one, I was not able to sleep well. I had hit a
point of being extra-sensorily aware of my self and my
surroundings. I was seeing from my inner vision and I was freaked
out, scared that I was going crazy. I had written a novel, which
took about six months to write. It was a fiction novel about two
women who had a past life as a man and woman who had an affair in
Ireland. I could not sleep without the character dialogues coming
out of my head, my inner ears. I just wrote and wrote furiously
every night from around 4pm to 3am.
I ended the story line and had reworked it to the point where I
hit blocks on doing further work on it. After I stopped, I began
entering dreams by looking down a black tunnel which opened up to
a video/dream screen. I watched my dreaming but I was not sure
what it was because it looked and felt real.
My fear kept me from sleeping well. I felt like I never got any
sleep. I was on constant vigilance that dream beings were going
to take me away. And so I became extra-aware of my dreams. I did
not want to be controled by dream beings. As I became more aware,
I noticed that I was entering other worlds. I got more terrified
but felt that I needed to watch my self to understand what was
going on with me. My curiosity was equal to my fear.
A typical night would be watching the tunnel open up and viewing
a dream screen at the end. One scene was of a living room that
looked like color schemes from the sixties. I enter the dream
screen and it becomes three-dimensional. To check my reality, I
begin to touch the couch and the furniture. Then, I try
something, I close my eyes. I see another living room with the
same furniture arrangement but with different colors. I open my
eyes and I am back in the first setting. Then, I focus on a part
of the scene and walk through a door. Out the door there is
another world altogether. Like a mosaic, it seems that there is
no continuity except that everything flows right into the next
scene.
Each morning after I experienced a major parrallel reality dream,
I felt like my world had changed. My world was shifting because
my perception of the world and what I could see and feel was
shifting.
The terrifying part was that from day to day, I could not
describe reality. I was losing my sense of a static reality. Not
only that, but if these dream beings were real, then there was
another world, or other worlds inside worlds and that scared me
to think about it. I could not really describe what was happening
to me so I felt that I was becoming an alien from my friends and
family.
(RCW): What is the Dreaming Of Lucid Freedom In America about?
A: Dolfina, from what I have been able to recall and gather, is
my soul mission. When I was a child, beings in my dreams taught
me about the power of dreaming, and told me that some day I would
take this knowledge out into the world. Literally, I felt that I
had been bottling up important knowledge that would some day be
necessary for me to open to the world. The mission letter I
received from my dream had to do about what Dolfina has been
learning as a soul in order to do the service of creating an
atmoshpere where other soul beings can come out of the closet, so
to speak.
Dolfina is a mission to train other lucid dreamers to take their
dreamwork out into the world and express their soul's need to
create a SOUL BASED REALITY vs. a material based reality.
Dreaming Of Lucid Freedom In America is about the Spiritual Ideal
for which America was founded. America was supposedly founded as
a religous refugee santuary. The Ideal America is one in which
people are bound together by a spiritual contract to respect our
likenesses and differences. To take our next step as a country
and leap into the global scene we need to become lucid dreamers
en masse... period. There is no doubt, no question of it. Dreams
are the core of everyone's knowledge; dreaming is the acting out
of that knowledge; lucid dreaming is the disciplined control to
make freewill choices. The age old debate over fate, destiny, and
freewill will be balanced between exploring the dreams worlds and
the outer manifestation of them... the so called "reality" as we
know it.
(RCW): How is Dolphina connected to the website Sol y Luna
Multimedia Productions? Studio?
A: Sol y Luna is a hub of interconnections between other lucid
dreamers who are creating and producing their own SOUL BASED
REALITY material. As one of my co-partners says, "Sol y Luna is a
cooperative of people working from the heart".
(RCW): How did the idea for a Web site come up?
A: I have been carrying notepads and a laptop off and on for
several years. I wanted to publish Dolfina's Dreaming Journal.
However, I could not see a way that printing it would do justice
to it. And I kept searching for the right way to publish it. I
wanted the freedom to independantly publish and oversee my work,
from raw material to finsished material without the middle men of
the publishing industry, who might market it as a commercial
product vs. a SOUL BASED REALTIY CHECK from Dolfina, the being
who showed me how to enter dreaming in a spiritual path.
I had worked on TimePassages, an astrolgy program to teach people
how to do astrology. I was working with the creator, Henry
Seltzer. He was getting started on putting his Astrograpgh
Software on the internet. I did not really pay much attention to
it. I could see potential, but I was interested in writing. At
about that time, in the Dolfina Dream Circle, I met a guy who
encouraged me to start my own website. I still did not see it as
real. I began doing research about the Internet. I guess that I
was still holding onto fear that telling the world about parallel
realities was going to bring chaos into my life due to other
people's reactions. So I did not see Dolfina's Dreaming Journal
going on line until after I had created Sol y Luna. Sol y Luna is
a co-operative venture so I had to lay the ground work because I
wanted to build a support network of other lucid dreamers. I
could see we all needed a forum to create our work. With my
research, I was seeing that the next step in communications is
the Internet. There is no quicker way to access and be accessible
to people, in general and in groups. Sol y Luna evolved to meet
the needs of others who have the need to express their soul work.
In addition, on the Internet, Dolfina can receive immediate
feedback from my audience who are in tune with Dolfina Work.
Dolfina can make direct connections with people around the globe.
(RCW): What are the plans for the future of the site?
A: The future of this site is to create a dynamic site where
people can come together from all parts of the world, create
their own forum that is related to the common goal of Sol y Luna.
An example: if you have been working on a film script and you
want to bring it to life, Sol y Luna will be a hub for artists
and technicians who will work with you. You might find other
writers, editors, stage artists, film artists, etc... The goal is
that you have a soul based project and if you do not have the
money to go to the bigger productions studios, you can produce
your work with others who can share talents, skills, and
resources.
Dolfina Work is a Mosaic of Interactive Dream Training which
provides services for dreamers who aspire to work on their
dreaming practices from within their dreaming. Dolfina Fun is an
experiential tour of parallel realities or multidimensions of
space and time travel. Dolfina is a dream guide who can travel
into other dimensions and actually demonstrate dreaming technique
from inside other people's dreams.
To participate in Dolfina Work, a person can email Dolfina
directly at solyluna@cruzio.com. Dolfina will re-invision, or
remote view the dream and give you customized instructions on
one's personal dream technique. Dolfina's future vision is to
create an on-line university for dreamers who will guide and
train other people in their spheres of influence to do dreamwork.
(RCW): So, Dolphina, what are your favorite dream books?
A: My favorite book as a child was Alice in Wonderland. I knew
that there was a reality in other worlds.
In my last year of college, I ran across Journey to Ixtlan.
During my last summer break, I decided that I needed to stop
being afraid of my dream beings and their multidimensional
worlds. After, I rec'd my letter about Dolfina, as I described, I
came across Journey to Ixtlan. I flipped through it and realized
it was about what I had been going through. I read it within a
few days. I was drawn to go to a used book store in Berkely and
buy a collection of Carlos Casteneda's work. I felt that don Juan
was teaching Casteneda what had been happening to me my entire
life. My dreaming shifted from fear to a sense of communing with
my dream worlds. Of course, as I read Casteneda's work, I began
to recall previous dreams where I had been stumped, stuck. I
began to chart my dreams through the core teachings of don Juan.
I tested his hypothesis from inside my dreams. I did not beleive
anything Casteneda wrote until I had verified its reality from
within my dreaming practice. Casteneda's books put me on the path
of knowing, for certain, that what I had been doing was
Dreamwork.
After reading Casteneda's work, I began researching other
dreamer's work. However, the teaching aspect in Casteneda's books
aligned with my own inner logic and inner illogical mosaic of
perception.
A lot of people have felt that Casteneda's work is flawed. My
question for them is, "How do you know; did you test each set of
practices?"
The real question that everyone either asks or needs to ask is,
"Is phenomena more real that neumena?" What constitutes a real
eperience? Can you prove that a strawberry is sweet? Is salt
salty? Is rain good or bad? In the dreamworlds, one experience
fades into another and there is no dividing line.
(RCW): Do you have a favorite dream?
A: No!
I play no favorites. Replaying a dream, which I can do, is
being obsessed with the images, the holographic quality of the
dream. I need to experience new dreams all the time.
(RCW): Anything else you would like the online dream community to
know about
you and your projects?
A: I would like to say that the most important part of my
dreaming mission is to share the simplicity of dreaming. We are
all dreaming. We hear about it form different sources. Religion
as we know it was invented to train us to see our dream life from
a set of given and regimented rules and routines. Religion caste
the fear of dreaming into so many people. Our underlying social
order is based on fear of the unknown. So we tend to surround
ourselves with objects which we can hold onto and know for
certain that we have something real. Go into your dreams and
explore the other worlds and discover, for your selves what
reality is all about. Don't rely on ministers or scientists. They
are only people too.
Visit the Dreaming Of Lucid Freedom In America on the Sol y Luna
site:
"http://www2.cruxio.com/~solyluna/"
To view other projects or to work with Dolfina privately, go
directly to the Dolfina introductory page:
"http://www2.cruxio.com/~solyluna/dolfina.htm"
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John Fitzsimons interview October 97
"An interview with John Fitzsimons,
leader/teacher/lecturer/counsellor of the
"New Age" group called Aspects"
Question the first-
VQ:Do you keep a dream diary?
JF:No
VQ:If so, for how long have you kept one?
JF:N/A
VQ:Have you a favourite amulet or symbol?
JF:The ankh.
VQ:Do you always wear one?
JF:No.
VQ:or do you regard it more as a "life" symbol?
JF:Yes.
VQ:Do you use a physical, or imaginary, ankh for your own
"psychic protection"?
JF : It depends on the degree of protection required. I like to
keep rituals/items to the minimum. If needed then having
both would have a cumulative effect and may be used.
VQ:Is there anything else "Egyptian" that appeals to you,
JF:Most Egyptian things appeal to me.
VQ:Does that tie in with a past life of your own that you are
aware of?
JF: More like a number of lives. I worked in spiritual areas
then I do so again now.
VQ:In your work with Aspects:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
how significant a role do dreams play?
JF:Only as a means to get answers from one's spirit guides
and/or as past life references. Until a person does spirit
communication and/or past life recall consciously.
VQ:I assume that you work more with others' dreams than your
own?
JF:Yes.
VQ :In your work with
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
how significant a role do dreams play?
JF:Only as a means to get answers from one's spirit guides
and/or as past life references. Until a person does spirit
communication and/or past life recall consciously.
VQ:So if dreams are a "byline",what other techniques do you use
to help people get in touch with their spirit guides?
JF : Prayer, and mediumistic training. Part of that would be
doing spirit guided writing.
VQ:How much dream recall do you use with beginners as opposed
to more "advanced" students?
JF : Everyone is different. If people are used to working
with dreams then they can continue doing so. However
the emphasis is placed on getting guidance from one's
guides "consciously" right from the start.
VQ :Does Aspects take a primarily Christian approach to prayer
and dreamwork?
JF : Aspects accommodates people's existing belief structure. A
belief in a higher force helps. One could say that the
essence of Christianity is emphasized but not orthodox
religious Christianity.
End
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Sex, Symbols and Dreams
A Review of the Work of Janice Hinshaw Baylis, Ph.D
By Linley Joy
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CAVEAT: This article contains sexually explicit description and
language. Some people may find the content distasteful and it
should not be viewed by minors without guidance. This article
does not broach the subject of counseling, sexual or otherwise.
If you are at all worried about your own or someone else's sexual
dreams (e.g. a child) please take steps to get in touch with the
appropriate organizations in your area.
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In this article I am going to take a stroll through the
fascinating territory of sexual dreams. The newly published
_Sex, Symbols and Dreams_ by Janice Hinshaw Baylis, Ph.D deals
specifically with this interesting topic, and I will be looking
at this book more closely as I go.
I have divided this article into three different sections:
1) Introduction (a personal view of sexual dreams)
2) A closer look at _Sex, Symbols and Dreams_
3) Two sexual-type dreams explored in more depth using the word
and image association methods from _Sex, Symbols and Dreams_
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A PERSONAL VIEW OF SEXUAL DREAMS:
The following extracts are taken from my own dream-journal.
"...I'm standing outside in the dark. I am peering through the
curtains of a house into the guest bedroom. I see a huge shape
moving in one of the twin beds and nothing in the other. I know
there should be two sleeping shapes, and this makes me feel
uneasy. Then I am inside the room. What I see repulses me. The
blonde male houseguest is having intercourse with the very young
girl that lives in the house. The girl is 8 or 9, very pretty,
with long straight blonde hair. She is staring straight up at the
ceiling while she is being abused. She has no legs, her body
stops neatly after her groin. The man thinks it's great fun and
somehow convinces me to have a go. I have a small, ugly penis,
onto which I put a condom that has no end. Then I proceed to lie
on top of the little girl and attempt intercourse with her. I
feel nothing. She feels even less than this. I am looking at her
wide eyes, and I can't be entirely sure now that she is
not dead..."
"...Young handsome man. He has entered into a cooking
competition. I break the egg yolk into his soup for him..."
"...I carry a pink mobile phone with me. I am camping with
someone. We arrive at a beautiful terraced camping ground,
looking over a stunning deep blue sea. We are about to set up
tent, when a few truckloads of boy scouts come down the road...."
"...there was a giant oyster cut open and laid out on the rock,
ready to eat..."
"...Rob Deniro and I are in bed. Lovely and gentle. He is
stroking me intimately, and I am embarrassed and just lie still.
'You've got freckles on your back!' he exclaims 'So have I!'..."
It is an interesting point to ponder that our minds don't
discriminate when it comes to dream expression. Almost everyone
has explicit and non-explicit sexual dreams at some point during
their lives, some of which are erotic and extremely pleasant,
others which have the feel of nightmares. Sometimes sexual-type
dreams can be embarrassing or confusing, and often they can feel
inappropriate to our real life sexuality, where in our dream we
are performing sexual acts that we are morally or ethically
opposed to in waking life.
Although we still don't understand fully the workings of the
subconscious mind, sexual dreams have been documented throughout
history and in more recent times have formed the basis of several
books and studies. Folklore interpretations have long been
replaced with broad and tolerant ideas exploring the way sexual
imagery and sexual symbolism help us which can help us with our
understanding of our own dreams.
Since this article is about sexual dreams in general and their
interpretation (and *not* which famous people I dream about)
interesting questions to ask might be - How often are sexual
dreams about sex, and when are they about something else? Also,
how do you know when a non-sexual dream is actually commenting on
your waking sex life.
In applying these questions to the above dreams from my journal,
I discovered some interesting things. The dreams from which these
extracts were taken were never fully interpreted by me at the
time they occurred. When I looked back through my journal I could
see that *most* of the unexplained and unexplored dreams happened
to be the sexually related ones. I asked myself why this might be
the case, and realised that after waking up from each of the
dreams in question I had been COMPLETELY distracted by the
imagery and in some cases by the people I had included in the
dream with me. The strong "WOW" or "YUK" reaction seemed to stop
me dead in my tracks, thus, more often than not the true
'meaning' of the dream was lost.
Famous people, incest, alien sex, growing new genitals, magical
orgasms, rape, true love, childhood sex, teenage sex, sex to make
babies, lust, lust and more LUST...the list goes on.
Whether titillating or terrifying, my sexual dream images are
some of the most vivid and memorable all of my dreams, often
staying with me for many days afterwards. It is this inherent
power that has encouraged me to find out more about them.
So, how can you get past the superficial actions of an intense
sexual dream and then interpret it?
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In this section I'm going to look at _Sex, Symbols and Dreams_ by
Dr Janice Baylis. An enjoyable and entertaining book, that is
crammed full of sexual-type dreams and their interpretations. (If
you ever thought you were the only one to have bizzare, or
fantastic, or frightening sexual dreams - I recommend taking a
look at the variety of dreams contained in this book - ordinary
people, yet fascinating dream material.)
Before diving specifically into word association & symbol
substitution systems, Dr Baylis reminds us of a few important
dream principles, that can apply to any kind of dream.
o Principle 1: Dreams are usually about the dreamers current
life, especially problem areas.
o Principle 2: An image may have different meanings depending on
the individual dreamer and which substitution system the
dream-mind used.
o Principle 3: For one thing to represent another there must be
some link, some similarity or association between them.
o Principle 4: The dream-mind uses more than one substitution
system in each dream.
o Principle 5: Many dreams have a dramatic structure:
- The problem or area of concern
- Development of the problem and/or a solution
- The reaction of the dream-ego
- An outcome
To explore the various levels of sexual-type dreams, _Sex,
Symbols and Dreams_ uses as one of its prime interpretative
tools, various forms of word play and association. Puns,
Homographs (same written form but different meaning) Dictionary
definitions, Jargon and Syllabification (division of a word into
its syllables) are all types of word representations that can be
used by the dream mind to convey a message. Dr Baylis looks very
closely at the language and symbols that have appeared in a
dream, or in the dreamers description of the dream, and then
links these images and/or words, back to the dreamer and the
dreamers real life.
An example from _Sex, Symbols and Dreams_:
"A single woman in her thirties reported this dream:
'I am at a singles party standing around, talking and enjoying
myself. Suddenly my fanny begins to itch. I scratch it descreetly
yet try to ignore it. The itching becomes worse so I leave the
party. I find an empty bedroom in the house. I pull down my
panties and look at my fanny [behind] in the mirror. There are
lots of bites. I know they are insect [sounds like in sex] bites.
I want something to stop the itching. The door opens. I'm so glad
it's two girls who come in and not a guy. They look at the insect
bites. One of the girls goes to the nearby medicine cabinet and
gets a medicine spray. 'I lie down on the bed on my tummy; by now
I'm nude [she is exposed]. This girl sprays the medicine on the
bites. It feels cool and soothing, the itching stops.
I sit up and kiss the girl a long kiss on the lips. I feel loving
toward her but am embarrassed in front of the other girl. I wake
up.' (Baylis Studen Dream Files)
Dr Baylis has this to say about the dream:
'She is at a singles party, a place to meet men; parties often
represent social life. Extending the visual *fanny*, to the word
*behind* and *behind* to *past*, she finds it is her past that is
bothering her. In a bedroom, an area associated with sexual
activity, by reflecting (mirror's function is to reflect) on her
past sexual activity she sees insect (sounds like *in sex* - a
pun) bites. She's been bitten in sexual activity. "I've
repeatedly gotten into a sexual relationship wanting to be
loved," she told me, "only to find that the fellas didn't love
me. They only wanted sex or at least not a commitment. I'm itchy
to find a real love."
'The soothing medicine spray is found and applied by a girl, a
feminine influence. She embraces (by definition *willingly
accepts*) this caring feminine attribute. This is an unidentified
female; it could be a self-loving part of the dreamer. It could
be suggesting a lesbian love, but probably not because of the
embarrassment pictured in the dream...'
In this example the dream seems to indicate a direct relationship
to the dreamers sexual life. However, often, exploration of dream
will point to another waking issue - and sexual activity, like
other 'fundamental' human emotional activities is an excellent
dream vehicle to express these 'other' issues. Perhaps our
dream-mind knows that when 'sex' is used in a dream, we will sit
up and take notice!
Word association and identifying symbolism in dreams, is a very
personal process, and is always influenced by the environment one
has grown up in and the primary language one speaks.
In the English language ('Sex, Symbols and Dreams' is written in,
and deals specifically with the English language) there are a
plethora of words that can have multiple meanings.
As only one of thousands of examples, let us look at what Dr
Baylis has to say about the use of the word "arse/ass_ (spelling
differs across the world) in the very useful "Mini-Dictionary in
the back of 'Sex, Symbols and Dreams'.
"Connotations:
- backassward; in reverse order, from beginning to end; move
backward - wrongly or confusedly, without system
- in arrears, late or behind in payments or finishing something,
such as a job, contract etc.
- wasted communication
- rear entry: get at what is behind something
also: Syllabification: anal/shitty plus intercourse/communication
or inner course; therefore, 'shitty communication' or 'on a
shitty course'.
To me, the word/image "arse/ass_ could represent...well...just an
"arse_! But my life experience suggests many other related
phrases;
"Nice piece of arse/ass_ or "Arse/ass over tit' [also: 'Arse
about face'] or (in some parts of the world) to be "Arsey_ is to
be antsy or irritable. Others are 'Arse-wipe' 'Arse bandit' and
'Silly arse'.
To allow for your own 'true' interpretation of the use of this
word, it might be useful to think of similar words (e.g. bottom,
bum, buttocks) and ask why 'arse' in particular was the one used
in your description/dream and not one of the others.
The words and images that we create in sexual dreams and the
words we use to describe these dreams (for example; sleazy,
fucked, slippery, cock) are worth exploring as concrete symbols
representing a person, action or attitude. Possible questions
could be: "What is it to be "sleazy_?_ "Who or what is fucked?_
'Sex, Symbols and Dreams' uses word association to explore a
large number of common sexual dreams, but it does more than this.
It also raises some important points about sexual-type dreams.
One of these, Dr Baylis herself expresses best:
"Sexual symbolism is only one form the dream-mind uses. I am
making it a special focus of this book to, as I said before, kill
the common misconception that sexual dreams should be taken
literally or dismissed as outrageous."
I, as a fervent dreamer, have never dismissed my sexual dreams,
but as noted earlier, at worst find them disturbing, and at best
deliciously distracting. In 'Sex, Symbols and Dreams', I found
very interesting food for thought, and was more able, upon
reading through the book and studying the examples given, to get
beyond some of the 'superficial' action in my own sexual dreams,
and discover relevant meanings/interpretations for them.
Several of the chapters in the book address quite common
questions about sexual dreaming, and offer practical methods for
answering these questions. For example there is a chapter called
"What's so and so doing in my dream" which I found very useful.
"So and so" might be a stranger, or a family member or your
partner...As one of the largest distractions against interpreting
a sexual dream when it occurs is the HUGE QUESTION - 'Why am I
dreaming sexually about him/her/it?'
The kind of symbol substitution and word association that is used
to interpret the dreams in 'Sex, Symbols and Dreams', requires a
little practice to get the hang of - but once you begin to
associate images and words in this way, the skill grows and with
it the potential to understand your sexual dreams in a new way
and on different levels. Whilst word/image association is by no
means the only way to go about interpreting a sexual dream (or
any kind of dream) it is a very useful system to explore, and can
be very impressive in its simplicity and application.
One of the best ways to share a process, is to "demonstrate" it.
Below are two sexual-type dreams that Dr Baylis has responded to,
using some of the methods described in 'Sex, Symbols and Dreams'.
(CAVEAT: - Dr Baylis does NOT interpret dreams via email - please
see the link below if you wish to read more about the book and Dr
Baylis)
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A LITTLE INFORMATION ABOUT THE DREAMER 'G':
'I'm very, very talkative, and spend a lot of time
planning/organizing/dreaming/working on 'changing' everything
around me. My partner, is the opposite - quiet, more gentle, and
more 'zen-like' (i.e. lets things 'be' - more tolerant about)
life/relationship etc. I am happy at the moment, but a little
frustrated about not being able to 'move' on creatively and
financially.'
DREAM 1: 'POP ON TRIAL'
Pop is in an old-style courthouse. It is a gallery-type room with
benches going steeply up each side. He stands on the wooden floor
in the centre of the room. He has done something horribly wrong.
This is his execution. There are guards watching him from close
by. He has the opportunity to give a little goodbye speech. This
he does, and he says sorry for what he has done, and then says
how much he deserves to die, but how glad he is that they are
allowing him to do it for himself. He then stuffs a giant condom
into his mouth, slowly, I can feel how its choking him. Its
horrible! Eventually when he has it almost the whole way in his
mouth, I can see that there is brown bloody stuff, coming out of
his mouth. I am watching this from one end of the courtroom.
DREAMERS FIRST THOUGHTS ON DREAM 1:
'In general, I suspect the dream is somehow connected to my way
of communicating. Or perhaps just communicating in general. I
(Pop?) have put myself on trial, admitted guilt, then have forced
myself to eat....my own words? my own discharge? I'm not sure
beyond this...
'Pop' is the nickname I use for my real life Grandfather. Pop
Smith. He is a 'character'. A wrinkly, ropey, old, slightly
bigoted, loud-mouthed, one-armed man. He is quite crude,
occasionally sexist, and fairly embarrassing to have around most
of the time. He recently took a trip overseas and paid me and 'M'
[G's partner] a visit.'
DREAM 2: 'SOFT PENIS'
'I'm having sex with a handsome, dark-haired man. He is a very
nice person and I have feelings for him. We are trying to have
intercourse in a bedroom, but I am worried about his penis. Two
things bother me about it. Firstly, it is soft, too soft.
Secondly, around the head of the penis there is a white
discharge. I don't say anything to him about this though, and we
lie on the bed together and continue the attempt at penetration.
Then he mentions that he has '....' (an std), and I'm relieved
that he has not got the white stuff from me, but also I feel put
off by him too. Then he says 'does M know? (about us) and I say
'yes'. He is surprised by this, and then pleased that we are ok.
In another part of the dream I am standing outside a toilet
cubicle. Inside is a girlfriend and her partner. I have come down
here to see if she's ok and ask her to come out. Some
apocolyptical thing has happened in the world - But she has
chosen to spend her last moments in the toilet with her man. They
come out of the cubicle briefly to speak to me, and then they go
back in and shut the door.'
DREAMERS FIRST THOUGHTS ON DREAM 2:
Hmmm....I'm really not sure what this one's about. It might have
something to do with communication too (re: pop on trial) or
perhaps it's actually about sex? Perhaps M is too 'soft' and
'discharges' stuff I don't want to catch (verbally that is). I
really don't know about the toilet cubicle bit - but I like the
imagery, and have a broad sense that this part of the dream has a
positive meaning for me.
DR BAYLIS MAKES COMMENTS ON DREAM 1: 'POP ON TRIAL'
I think you are correct that 'POP ON TRIAL' deals with your
communication style and a bit more, extraversion. From what
you've said I feel that Pop may represent a part of you,
extraversion. Dreams often use exaggerated/extreme personalities
to focus on characteristics. It would be good though to put Pop
on The People Meaning List (see later) and see what comes up.
Aristotle said, "The key to dream interpretation is
resemblances."
Self-description of Dreamer: "I'm very, very talkative
Description of Pop: "loud-mouthed"
Dreamer: "planning/ogranizing/working on 'changing' everything
(does that include the people?) around me.
Pop: "hard to tolerate - very bossy and domineering"
Pop having visited you and M about two weeks before the dream
would become a focus of attention, he would become a prime choice
as a symbol for extraversion and/or control tendencies. Thinking
then of Pop as a symbol for your extravertive style of
communicating/talking/speech, what might the dream be saying
about very, very talkative G?
*Courthouse* - Place of being judged in criminal or civil
offences. Place of sentencing could be the act of putting words
into syntax for communicating! Stands in center of room - being
center of attention, extreme extraverts love this.
*Gallery* - 1. chance to 'play to the gallery' an idiom for
trying to get the attention of the audience.
2. the shallow, undiscriminating general public. He
(extraversion/very, very talkative) has done something horribly
wrong this is his execution.
*Execution* from dictionary: his execution 1. way of performing
a skill i.e. communication (hard to tolerate, often embarrassing
etc.
2. putting to death -